[Downtown]

Hello, Adam et all.

I've been playing quite a bit of micro-stakes limit 2-7 triple draw and doing okay. I read Daniel Negreanu's section on the game in Super System 2 and, of course, Adam's articles on the subject both at this site and Cardplayer (very helpful, by the way).

This is about the extent of my education in the game so far and want to learn to be a better player. I'd like to ask your opinion(s) on some aspects of the game.

I find myself still not sure of what to do in a few spots. One big one is what types of hands are playable from the big blind and the small blind.

I seldom play rough draws as I find it just gets me in trouble. I try to play relatively smooth two and one-card draws and I usually play them for a raise. At the moment, these are generally the types of hands I play from the blinds as well (with the exception of limped pots from the BB).

Is this correct? How much should I consider the player(s) and the pot odds when deciding whether or not to continue with a rough draw?

For example, is a 348 or a 367 a playable hand for a raise from the big blind vs. one opponent? What about in a multi-way pot for one raise before the first draw? One-card draws to rough eights -- deuceless 87s, for example -- also give me some trouble (I usually fold them but wonder if they have value).

Similarly, are draws like that worth completing the small blind in a limped pot with multiple opponents?

Worse hands like 457 I usually fold but would we ever consider playing these in any circumstance?

Would any of the above-mentioned draws ever be played out of the blinds?

A lot of questions, I know -- it exposes my lack of experience -- but I thought I'd ask . Thanks very much in advance for any thoughts anyone has.

And thanks for all the past articles and responses as well! They helped me discover a great game.

[ADAMtheEXPERT]

dOWNTOWN


Sorry, I didn't see this before.


While ATE is here to help, please remember that I have to make a living too.

These questions are like a LOT of time, so consider getting like two hours ATE time, all to yourself. Still give you the old price.


Ok, anyway it's important to know that in LIMIT, we don't always have to draw to the nuts. The principle issues to determine acceptable starting hands, are:

(1) Raising standards of the opposition
(2) Willingness of opponents to still take two, after the first draw
(3) position relative to the raiser.

Most one card 8's, regardless of how rough, are fine for one raise.
This, because most raises are in fact, TWO card draws. Since you do'nt either get SQUASHED in limit, we do'nt have to worry about someone hitting a better hand, WITHIN REASON. Position is also important.

Remember that the clever winning player, thinks well beyond just making a hand, specially in draw games where no one can see any of your cards.

All sorts of tricky plays you can make in draw games, even on the internet (much much MORE, when you actually hold the cards)


So, we need to think "outside the box"


Is this a good time to put in another plug? I mean, what are we talking about here, for two hours at the old price, a hundoid? Is not two hours with ATE all to yoursself, worth this

(note: for more complicated games, I NEVER accept a two hour lesson, as this is not enough time)


Obviously any stright-type 8 draw is NEVER acceptable, and merely becomes a two card to a seven, where applicable


Thus, 4578 is now 457

Certainly, in limit you can call with even ragamuffin "75 draws" Either defending the BB, or cold against a raise, IF you have position

The fact that you COULD hit a straight, doen'st kill the inherent value of the hand.

Remember, that position is king, much more than in games where you are not drawing cards.


It sounds are though you have a pretty good grasp of the game, perhaps a bit TOO tight for now. But, that is better than the opposite.


HINT: Remember that anyhand can beome a different draw than what you originally thought, based on the betting action and number of cards opponent drew.


Well, I hope you'll consider taking some lesson time, and if in the future I do'nt see your posts, please PM me to let me know.
_________________
Adam

[ADAMtheEXPERT]

IT's just SO hard to answer general questions.

For example, you include 348 and 367 in the same category, they are not.

I'm going to help you, whether you take lessons or not.

But, just as it makes it easier for me to answer, so also does asking SPECIFIC questions, give you a better education.

SOMETIMES the slightest change in the circumstances of hand, gives us a completly different answer.


So, really the only way to learn is to go over example after example, including as much information as possible.


For example, let's look at our old friend, 348 and 763


These two hands are not even close!

With the 763, there are two ranks you can catch, that give you a (gasp) straight draw, or, for that matter, a straight.


with the 348, if you catch one good card, it CANNOT present a straight draw. And, of course if you atch TWO good cards, it cannot make you a straight.


If you catch 4 or 5 to 367, then you will have 3467, and thus only ONE rank to make a GOOD (top 10) hand, and two for a top twenty hand.


conversly, with the 348, catching 2, 5 6 or 7, gives you a one card to a top ten hand.

With NO shot at ending up with a straight.



So, my friend (and I really really hope you'll take the lessons, for both our sakes)

you can see how it is necessary to haveSPECIFIC questions.


Is'nt it amazing how much we learned, just from this example?

By the way, if you have not guessed it yet, the 3 6 7 when defending a bb or new player post, is

(can you guess)

yup! two cards to . . . . . 73


Although it's not necessary to draw to the nuts, we do not play two card draws to non-75's, exception is of course

(can you guess)


2 67 I guess that's pretty obvious.



Well, I hope you'll come more often, to the site. Only if people come back and post, can we return to our pre-porn-spammers greatness


Adam
_________________
Adam

[Downtown]

Great information -- thanks Adam!

Of course, I have many more questions -- one is what kinds of hands are best to pat early in hands -- say after the first or second draw.

I think I'm making mistakes by rapping with weaker hands too early and, conversely, not standing with reasonable hands early and continuing to draw. I find this is more problematic, of course, when I'm out of position.

For example, should I rap with something like a 97432 out of position vs. 1 opponent who called my raise and drew 2 on the first draw? (I assume if there is more than one opponent we continue to draw to the nuts, is this correct?)

What about a rougher hand like 98652? Is this a playable hand after the first draw vs. two opponents drawing 2 or more?

Similarly, if we are in position vs. one opponent and they continue to draw 2 on the second draw, is rapping with a rough 9 the right play?

Next, on kind of wacky note to be honest, I've noticed I lose the most to players I consider to be very weak but willing to gamble.

You know the type -- they cold-call raises before the first draw drawing 3 or more and never ever fold unless they have a straight or pair of Aces after the last draw.

It seems strange but these players end up costing me more money than all the good players at the tables combined. They just seem to get lucky and make hands more often than I expect. I think I'm value-betting these players being well ahead throughout the hand but just as often it's me pushing the chips over to them in the end.

That said, I wonder if I'm playing these super-loose players correctly.

Currently, as I mentioned, I'm playing it pretty straight -- betting and raising when I'm ahead and charging them to draw from behind.

I assume I'm doing the right thing but I'm beginning to wonder. Is it ever advisable to slow down against these players who simply do not fold until we've made a decent hand?

Additionally, I find I end up paying them off too much (I think) at the end when they make their last-gasp 2-card draw to the 86 and I make something like an 87 or 96.

Other times, I just don't believe they've made their 3- or 4-card draws to the 7 or smooth 8 and pay them off with worse pat hands or continue to draw 1 thinking I have a lot of outs.

Should I give them more credit and muck my 1-card nut or near-nut draws (or even draws like 86) against pat hands after the first draw in these situations or call one small bet and fold if I don't improve?

Anyway, thanks again, Adam, for answering my myriad of questions and for maintaining an excellent site. Believe me, the instant I have a couple of hundred for private lessons (or whatever your fee may be), I would be into it. There is no doubt in my mind there is much I could learn from you and it would improve my game significantly (which, after all, is my goal!).

Too bad I'm poor. I think I do have $25 on Party Poker you'd be welcome to though! Thanks again and have a great day.

[ADAMtheEXPERT]

One must remember that while ATE does like to help fans, things I write here have to be geared towards HOW many people around the world, are interested in the subject.

SO MANY QUESTIONS


Remember, that even If I wanted to spend an hour on this, that

SINCE each situation is different, my answers would not be interchangable .

THIS is why I ask for specific questons, NOT to be a snotty brat.

We NEED to know things to make an answer.


Do these players bet out there hands on the last draw
Do they ever bluff into a pat hand

If you have to pay off a bet on the end when they hit, or to defend against a suspected bluffer, a rough pat hand loses alot of value.

If someone is willing to draw TWO still, after the first draw, or (gasp) with only one draw left, a 98 is a good hand.

Same for agaisnt TWO two card draws.


Really, please post things like this


I wsas playing and had 98 23 7 After the first draw, one player took one, two took two.

These players were the type that would still call with only one draw left, with a t wo card draw.

Should I break, and if so how far down.



Or, If you really cannot do this, then please one at a time.


By the way, this is NOT the game to devote your time to. It's OK, but the sad fact is that since pokerslobs will NOT spread a game bigger than 50 max NL, it's NOT something to be getting into.


The best way to get all the information you need, is to take the deal.


TAKE THE DEAL
TAKE THE DEAL


Guess I'll answer my own question



Rough pat hands are NOT something to play, they are something that you happen to hit by accident.

Thus, on the first draw, a 23789, is a onecard draw to 87 or a two card to the nuts, depending on how many players in the pot.

2 opponents, one card three or more two cards.


The advice given in the Ollllllld supersystem, that a nine should only be played against a SINGLE opponent who's drawn two or more cards, is still pretty good in triple draw.

But still, with three draws, a good draw to say 2367 would be a favorite against any 98, even 97.

So, if they take ONE, then you have to take TWO, that's the reality of 98732

If they take TWO, then you take NONE.


Dang, I'm not trying to be a SNOT, but this, like all poker games is just too too complicated for be to be able to train a person, here in the forum

so

take the deal
take the deal
_________________
Adam

[ADAMtheEXPERT]